SOILS-L: 199707XX
is the compilation of discussion during Jul 97
via AB4EL Web Digests @ SunSITE
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:02:04 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 27 Jun 1997 to 30 Jun 1997
There are 2 messages totalling 33 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. January Software Guide (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:19:55 -0400
From: PROXY POL ENG (POLENGINEERING@CAHNERS.COM)
Subject: Re: January Software Guide
Dr. Pessarakli,
A copy of the Pollution Engineering January Software Guide is on its way
to you today. Many thanks for your interest.
Cathryn Hodson, web editor
Pollution Engineering Online
www.pollutioneng.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:21:52 -0400
From: PROXY POL ENG (POLENGINEERING@CAHNERS.COM)
Subject: Re: January Software Guide
Andy,
A copy is on its way to you today. Many thanks for your interest!
Cathy Hodson, web editor
Pollution Engineering Online
www.pollutioneng.com
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 27 Jun 1997 to 30 Jun 1997
**************************************************
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 00:01:49 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 30 Jun 1997 to 2 Jul 1997
There are 2 messages totalling 63 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:05:48 -0400
From: Lenore Vasilas (lenore.matula@CCMAIL.NAB.USACE.ARMY.MIL)
Subject: Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
I was wondering if anyone has observed wetland hydrology (anaerobic conditions in the upper part) indicators in the soil or indicators that a soil with hydric morphology no longer is receiving wetland hydrology (the soil has been effectively drained). I am an NRCS soil scientist working with the Corps of Engineers regulatory program. There has been a great deal of discussion and confusion over identifying wetland hydrology in seasonally saturated wetlands because most of the indicators that can be used according to the Corps of Engineers 87 manual are based on either having the water there at the time you look at it or signs of inundation or flooding. The only indicator that is found in these seasonally saturated wetlands is local soil survey data and because this is a secondary indicator of hydrology you need two. I would appreciate your suggestions or comments on this subject. Thanks in advance.
Lenore Matula Vasilas
Soil Scientist
(410)962-6011
CENAB-OP-RX
PO Box 1715
Baltimore, MD 2203-1715
Lenore.Matula@ccmail.nab.usace.army.mil
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:47:25 -0500
From: Donald L Thompson II (dlt@UNLGRAD1.UNL.EDU)
Subject: Re: Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
I would suggest contacting Dr. Harvey Luce at the University of
Connecticut in Storrs, Ct. Unfortunately i am no longer in contact with
him, but getting his phone # shouldn't be hard. His primary
specialization was identifying wetland soils that were not always
flooded, especially at the time of sampling. He has a vast amount of
resources on the subject, and i'm sure would be happy to help and provide
you with information.
Donald Thompson
On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Lenore Vasilas wrote:
) I was wondering if anyone has observed wetland hydrology (anaerobic conditions in the upper part) indicators in the soil or indicators that a soil with hydric morphology no longer is receiving wetland hydrology (the soil has been effectively drained). I am an NRCS soil scientist working with the Corps of Engineers regulatory program. There has been a great deal of discussion and confusion over identifying wetland hydrology in seasonally saturated wetlands because most of the indicators that can be used according to the Corps of Engineers 87 manual are based on either having the water there at the time you look at it or signs of inundation or flooding. The only indicator that is found in these seasonally saturated wetlands is local soil survey data and because this is a secondary indicator of hydrology you need two. I would appreciate your suggestions or comments on this subject. Thanks in advance.
)
)
)
) Lenore Matula Vasilas
)
) Soil Scientist
)
) (410)962-6011
)
) CENAB-OP-RX
)
) PO Box 1715
)
) Baltimore, MD 2203-1715
)
) Lenore.Matula@ccmail.nab.usace.army.mil
)
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 30 Jun 1997 to 2 Jul 1997
*************************************************
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 00:03:18 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 2 Jul 1997 to 7 Jul 1997
There is one message totalling 65 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:20:45 -0400
From: Pierre Bordenave (73571.2443@COMPUSERVE.COM)
Subject: Re: Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
Lenore Vasilas wrote:
"""I was wondering if anyone has observed wetland hydrology (anaerobic conditions
in the upper part) indicators in the soil or indicators that a soil with hydric
morphology no longer is receiving wetland hydrology (the soil has been effectively
drained). I!am an NRCS soil scientist working with the Corps of Engineers
regulatory program. There has been a great deal of discussion and confusion over
identifying wetland hydrology in seasonally saturated wetlands because most of the
indicators that can be used! according to the Corps of Engineers 87 manual are
based on either having the water there at the time you look at it or signs of
inundation or flooding. The only indicator that is found in these seasonally
saturated wetlands is local soil survey data an!d because this is a secondary
indicator of hydrology you need two. I would appreciate your suggestions or
comments on this subject. Thanks in advance.""""
Lenore Matula Vasilas
Soil Scientist
(410)962-6011
CENAB-OP-RX
PO Box 1715
Baltimore, MD 2203-1715
Lenore.Matula@ccmail.nab.usace.army.mil
The following is my response:
First, I do not know any soil scientist consultant who has NOT observed wetland
hydrology indicators in hydric soils that have been drained. Most of the
wetlands I have delineated over the last 10 years are seasonal. Soil
characteristics indicating hydric conditions are not secondary. They are the
confirmation of the plant indicators and occasional observable hydrology.
Draining the soil does not remove the characteristic redoximorphic features in a
hydric soil. That is why the soil is the most reliable parameter in identifying
existing and historic wetlands. Wetland plants will grow well outside of the
wetland perimeter and upland plants will grow in wetlands. Water can be drained
or added to the land. Unless you excavated it and mix it up, however, the soil
cannot lie to you like the other parameters. The 87 manual also identifies
that in the event of a dispute between agencies or delineations based on the
various parameters, the final delineation will be determined by the soil
characteristics as determined by a Soil Scientist.
Shame on you as a Soil Scientist to assume "the only indicator that is found in
these seasonally saturated wetlands is local soil survey data." Soil Surveys are
excellent tools for general planning purposes and reference. However they are
NOT RELIABLE for mapping or identifying wetlands or wetland boundaries on a site
specific basis. Just as the NWI maps, the map scale is too imprecise. For site
specific mapping, particularly if you are working as a regulator (that point was
not clear) the best source for reliable soils data to determine hyric soil
characteristics is a Soil Scientist!
Visit the NSCSS, Inc. web site for more information about wetland indicators,
particularly "The proper use and interpretation of 'a, a -dipryridyl' as an
indicator of ferrous iron in soil water." by Phil Small, RPSS, CPSS, CPSSc.
"The Soil is the Solution"
Pierre Bordenave, RPSS
Principal Partner, The Soils Group, Inc.
73571.2443@compuserve.com
Member, National Society of Consulting Soil Scientists, Inc.
http://www.wolfe.net/~psmall/tsgi.htm
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 2 Jul 1997 to 7 Jul 1997
************************************************
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 00:04:12 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 7 Jul 1997 to 8 Jul 1997
There is one message totalling 49 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Finite-Layer Contaminant Transport Software
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:42:31 -0700
From: Michael Fraser (lfraser@IBM.NET)
Subject: Finite-Layer Contaminant Transport Software
Finite-Layer Contaminant Transport Models
Please forgive the duplication caused by cross-posting of the following
to several mailing lists. Feel free to forward this posting to any
individual or list that would be interested.
Using the finite-layer modeling software, contaminant transport from
multiple sources, either at the surface or buried, can be modeled
quickly and accurately in one and a half dimensions using POLLUTEv6 or
two-dimensions using MIGRATEv9.
Unlike finite element and finite difference formulations, finite-layer
models do not require the use of a "time-marching" procedure. POLLUTEv6
and MIGRATEv9 use a finite-layer technique that provides numerically
accurate and stable results, while requiring relatively little
computational and data entry effort.
In addition to advective-dispersive transport, these models can consider
sorption, radioactive and biological decay, phase changes, and transport
through fractures. Model properties may be either constant or transient,
with the concentrations calculated at specified times, depths, and
distances.
With more then ten years utilization in industry, POLLUTEv6 and
MIGRATEv9 are well tested contaminant migration analysis programs which
are widely used in landfill design internationally.
For more information or a free demo contact:
GAEA Software Group
Attn: Michael Fraser
1575 Lyons Avenue
Windsor, Ontario
Canada, N9J 3K4
Tel: 1-800-880-6731 (North America only) or (519) 978-0808
Fax: (519) 978-0815.
E-Mail: lfraser@ibm.net
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 7 Jul 1997 to 8 Jul 1997
************************************************
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:02:09 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 8 Jul 1997 to 9 Jul 1997
There are 2 messages totalling 202 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Re[2]: Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
2. GROUNDWATER Mailing List
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:59:56 -0500
From: Lenore Vasilas (LENORE.MATULA@CCMAIL.NAB.USACE.ARMY.MIL)
Subject: Re[2]: Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
Lenore Vasilas wrote:
"""I was wondering if anyone has observed wetland hydrology (anaerobic
conditions
in the upper part) indicators in the soil or indicators that a soil with hydric
morphology no longer is receiving wetland hydrology (the soil has been
effectively
drained). I!am an NRCS soil scientist working with the Corps of Engineers
regulatory program. There has been a great deal of discussion and confusion
over
identifying wetland hydrology in seasonally saturated wetlands because most of
the
indicators that can be used! according to the Corps of Engineers 87 manual are
based on either having the water there at the time you look at it or signs of
inundation or flooding. The only indicator that is found in these seasonally
saturated wetlands is local soil survey data an!d because this is a secondary
indicator of hydrology you need two. I would appreciate your suggestions or
comments on this subject. Thanks in advance.""""
Lenore Matula Vasilas
Soil Scientist
(410)962-6011
CENAB-OP-RX
PO Box 1715
Baltimore, MD 2203-1715
Lenore.Matula@ccmail.nab.usace.army.mil
Pierre Bordenave responded:
First, I do not know any soil scientist consultant who has NOT observed wetland
hydrology indicators in hydric soils that have been drained. Most of the
wetlands I have delineated over the last 10 years are seasonal. Soil
characteristics indicating hydric conditions are not secondary. They are the
confirmation of the plant indicators and occasional observable hydrology.
Draining the soil does not remove the characteristic redoximorphic features in a
hydric soil. That is why the soil is the most reliable parameter in
identifying
existing and historic wetlands. Wetland plants will grow well outside of the
wetland perimeter and upland plants will grow in wetlands. Water can be drained
or added to the land. Unless you excavated it and mix it up, however, the soil
cannot lie to you like the other parameters. The 87 manual also identifies
that in the event of a dispute between agencies or delineations based on the
various parameters, the final delineation will be determined by the soil
characteristics as determined by a Soil Scientist.
Shame on you as a Soil Scientist to assume "the only indicator that is found in
these seasonally saturated wetlands is local soil survey data." Soil Surveys
are
excellent tools for general planning purposes and reference. However they are
NOT RELIABLE for mapping or identifying wetlands or wetland boundaries on a site
specific basis. Just as the NWI maps, the map scale is too imprecise. For
site
specific mapping, particularly if you are working as a regulator (that point was
not clear) the best source for reliable soils data to determine hyric soil
characteristics is a Soil Scientist!
Visit the NSCSS, Inc. web site for more information about wetland indicators,
particularly "The proper use and interpretation of 'a, a -dipryridyl' as an
indicator of ferrous iron in soil water." by Phil Small, RPSS, CPSS, CPSSc.
"The Soil is the Solution"
Pierre Bordenave, RPSS
Principal Partner, The Soils Group, Inc.
73571.2443@compuserve.com
Member, National Society of Consulting Soil Scientists, Inc.
http://www.wolfe.net/~psmall/tsgi.htm
I am responding:
Thank you for the information. As a soil scientist I
realize that hydric soil morphology is an excellent
indicator that these soils formed in wetland hydrology.
However, the 87 manual requires that you have all three
parameters (soils, veg. and hydrology) in order to call an
area a wetland. There are many seasonally saturated areas
that have wetland hydrology and are saturated in the spring,
but are dry the rest of the year. In these areas, as a
soils scientist looking at the soil morpholgy and the lack
of evidence of drainage, I feel comfortable inferring that
the hydrology is there and that these are wetlands.
However, many regulators, who are not soil scientists and
not comfortable making a call without meeting a primary
indicator or two secondary indicators of hydrology, as the
87 manual indicates you should do, have problems with these
areas. In many cases the only secondary indicator you meet
is local soil survey data. To assists those regulators who
do not feel comfortable inferring hydrology, I am looking
for other possible secondary indicators of hydrology that
can be used in seasonally saturated wetlands. I think a
soil indicator would be most appropriate, since indicators
that occur above the ground usually do not occur in these
areas because the water does not rise above the soil
surface. I think using soil morphology will be difficult
because it takes a while for soil morphology to change once
it is drained. I have had some excellent suggestions for
using soil chemical and biological properties. Looking at
soil micro-organisms looks like it may be the most promising
suggestion I have had so far. If you have any suggestions,
please let me know.
Thanks.
Lenore Matula Vasilas
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:41:32 -0400
From: "Kenneth E. Bannister" (kenbannister@GROUNDWATER.COM)
Subject: GROUNDWATER Mailing List
Sorry if you receive this message more than once.
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------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 8 Jul 1997 to 9 Jul 1997
************************************************
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:03:29 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 9 Jul 1997 to 10 Jul 1997
There is one message totalling 142 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:58:00 -0700
From: Richard Chinn (info@ENVTECHCENTER.COM)
Subject: Re: Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
Lenore Vasilas wrote:
)
) Lenore Vasilas wrote:
) """I was wondering if anyone has observed wetland hydrology (anaerobic
) conditions
) in the upper part) indicators in the soil or indicators that a soil with hydric
) morphology no longer is receiving wetland hydrology (the soil has been
) effectively
) drained). I!am an NRCS soil scientist working with the Corps of Engineers
) regulatory program. There has been a great deal of discussion and confusion
) over
) identifying wetland hydrology in seasonally saturated wetlands because most of
) the
) indicators that can be used! according to the Corps of Engineers 87 manual are
) based on either having the water there at the time you look at it or signs of
) inundation or flooding. The only indicator that is found in these seasonally
) saturated wetlands is local soil survey data an!d because this is a secondary
) indicator of hydrology you need two. I would appreciate your suggestions or
) comments on this subject. Thanks in advance.""""
) Lenore Matula Vasilas
) Soil Scientist
) (410)962-6011
) CENAB-OP-RX
) PO Box 1715
) Baltimore, MD 2203-1715
) Lenore.Matula@ccmail.nab.usace.army.mil
)
) Pierre Bordenave responded:
) First, I do not know any soil scientist consultant who has NOT observed wetland
) hydrology indicators in hydric soils that have been drained. Most of the
) wetlands I have delineated over the last 10 years are seasonal. Soil
) characteristics indicating hydric conditions are not secondary. They are the
) confirmation of the plant indicators and occasional observable hydrology.
)
) Draining the soil does not remove the characteristic redoximorphic features in a
) hydric soil. That is why the soil is the most reliable parameter in
) identifying
) existing and historic wetlands. Wetland plants will grow well outside of the
) wetland perimeter and upland plants will grow in wetlands. Water can be drained
) or added to the land. Unless you excavated it and mix it up, however, the soil
) cannot lie to you like the other parameters. The 87 manual also identifies
) that in the event of a dispute between agencies or delineations based on the
) various parameters, the final delineation will be determined by the soil
) characteristics as determined by a Soil Scientist.
)
) Shame on you as a Soil Scientist to assume "the only indicator that is found in
) these seasonally saturated wetlands is local soil survey data." Soil Surveys
) are
) excellent tools for general planning purposes and reference. However they are
) NOT RELIABLE for mapping or identifying wetlands or wetland boundaries on a site
) specific basis. Just as the NWI maps, the map scale is too imprecise. For
) site
) specific mapping, particularly if you are working as a regulator (that point was
) not clear) the best source for reliable soils data to determine hyric soil
) characteristics is a Soil Scientist!
)
) Visit the NSCSS, Inc. web site for more information about wetland indicators,
) particularly "The proper use and interpretation of 'a, a -dipryridyl' as an
) indicator of ferrous iron in soil water." by Phil Small, RPSS, CPSS, CPSSc.
)
) "The Soil is the Solution"
) Pierre Bordenave, RPSS
) Principal Partner, The Soils Group, Inc.
) 73571.2443@compuserve.com
) Member, National Society of Consulting Soil Scientists, Inc.
) http://www.wolfe.net/~psmall/tsgi.htm
)
) I am responding:
) Thank you for the information. As a soil scientist I
) realize that hydric soil morphology is an excellent
) indicator that these soils formed in wetland hydrology.
) However, the 87 manual requires that you have all three
) parameters (soils, veg. and hydrology) in order to call an
) area a wetland. There are many seasonally saturated areas
) that have wetland hydrology and are saturated in the spring,
) but are dry the rest of the year. In these areas, as a
) soils scientist looking at the soil morpholgy and the lack
) of evidence of drainage, I feel comfortable inferring that
) the hydrology is there and that these are wetlands.
) However, many regulators, who are not soil scientists and
) not comfortable making a call without meeting a primary
) indicator or two secondary indicators of hydrology, as the
) 87 manual indicates you should do, have problems with these
) areas. In many cases the only secondary indicator you meet
) is local soil survey data. To assists those regulators who
) do not feel comfortable inferring hydrology, I am looking
) for other possible secondary indicators of hydrology that
) can be used in seasonally saturated wetlands. I think a
) soil indicator would be most appropriate, since indicators
) that occur above the ground usually do not occur in these
) areas because the water does not rise above the soil
) surface. I think using soil morphology will be difficult
) because it takes a while for soil morphology to change once
) it is drained. I have had some excellent suggestions for
) using soil chemical and biological properties. Looking at
) soil micro-organisms looks like it may be the most promising
) suggestion I have had so far. If you have any suggestions,
) please let me know.
) Thanks.
) Lenore Matula Vasilas
Lenore,
I agree wholeheartedly with you that wetlands that are seasonally
saturated but not inundated will lack primary hydrology indicators (per
87 ACOE Manual) unless you are there during the wet season. All the
primary indicators with the exception of saturation with 12" require
current or previous INUNDATION and are ineffective with saturated soils.
(As does water-stained leaves which is a secondary indicator).
Have you tried using the FAC-neutral test? It is a secondary hydrology
indicator, that, along with Soil Survey data, can confirm hydrology per
the 87 Manual. Also, oxidized root channels can form in saturated
soils. However, they must be within 12" of the surface and are only
found in iron-rich soils.
If you are not familiar with the FAC-neutral test, let me know and I
will try to explain it.
Richard
--
Richard Chinn, MS
Certified Environmental Trainer
ACOE Provisionally-Certified Wetland Delineator
Environmental Technology Center
8413 Laurel Fair Circle, Suite 200
Tampa, FL 33610-7355
Phone: 813.621.8848
Fax: 813.621.0153
Email: info@envtechcenter.com
Web: http://envtechcenter.com
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 9 Jul 1997 to 10 Jul 1997
*************************************************
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:02:26 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 10 Jul 1997 to 11 Jul 1997
There are 5 messages totalling 217 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Agricultural Information-Computers (3)
2. aginfo on CD
3. Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:10:55 +1000
From: Chris pritchard (agcontn@RTC.CAMPASPE.NET.AU)
Subject: Agricultural Information-Computers
Hi all,
I realise that this is not the correct forum to raise this subject but
seeing that there is a large gathering of researchers present, I will
quickly run this past you.
Does anyone know of any agricultural sources of information that come on
disc or cd that cover aspects like soils, plant disease's, plant pests
anything really as long as its related to agriculture.
Any information will be greatly appreciated. Please email me directly.
Thanks,
Chris.
****************************************************
C.J.Pritchard
agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au
Progress does not always have to be forward.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:27:28 -0400
From: "Ali Fares, Ph.D." (af@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU)
Subject: Re: Agricultural Information-Computers
Hi Chris:
We in The Soil and Water Science Department of the University of Florida
have a soil Disk, the person that you can contact is:
Dr. Marry Collins
2171 McCarty Hall
Soil & Water Sci. Dept.
Univ. of Fl.
I also believe that that are more software in IFAS computer sercvices.
Sincerely,
Ali Fares, Ph.D.
Hydrologist/Soil Physist
Chris pritchard wrote:
)
) Hi all,
) I realise that this is not the correct forum to raise this subject but
) seeing that there is a large gathering of researchers present, I will
) quickly run this past you.
) Does anyone know of any agricultural sources of information that come on
) disc or cd that cover aspects like soils, plant disease's, plant pests
) anything really as long as its related to agriculture.
) Any information will be greatly appreciated. Please email me directly.
) Thanks,
) Chris.
) ****************************************************
) C.J.Pritchard
)
) agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au
)
) Progress does not always have to be forward.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:01:00 -0700
From: Guy Yeates (YEATES@CABI.MSM.CGNET.COM)
Subject: Re: aginfo on CD
Chris,
you asked about
)...agricultural sources of information that come on
)disc or cd that cover aspects like soils, plant disease's, plant pests
)anything really as long as its related to agriculture.
here at CAB International , our 'CAB abstracts' database, comprising
agricultural abstracts and bibliographic info and is available on CD-ROM.
We also have subsets available one of which is the SOIL-CD.
For more information please go via "publications catalogue" on our website
at http://www.cabi.org/
All the best with your search,
Guy Yeates
Editor for 'Irrigation & Drainage Abstracts'
Assist. Editor for 'Soils & Fertilizers'
*************************************
CAB INTERNATIONAL
Wallingford, Oxfordshire,
OX10 8DE, UK
yeates@cabi.msm.cgnet.com
************************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:26:11 -0400
From: "Ali Fares, Ph.D." (af@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU)
Subject: Re: Agricultural Information-Computers
Chris pritchard wrote:
)
) Hi all,
) I realise that this is not the correct forum to raise this subject but
) seeing that there is a large gathering of researchers present, I will
) quickly run this past you.
) Does anyone know of any agricultural sources of information that come on
) disc or cd that cover aspects like soils, plant disease's, plant pests
) anything really as long as its related to agriculture.
) Any information will be greatly appreciated. Please email me directly.
) Thanks,
) Chris.
) ****************************************************
) C.J.Pritchard
)
) agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au
)
) Progress does not always have to be forward.
Hi Chris:
We in The Soil and Water Science Department of the University of Florida
have a soil Disk, the person that you can contact is:
Dr. Marry Collins
2171 McCarty Hall
Soil & Water Sci. Dept.
Univ. of Fl.
I also believe that that are more software in IFAS computer sercvices.
Sincerely,
Ali Fares Ph.D.
Hydrologist/Soil Scientist
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:12:09 -0800
From: Codi Hall (tgl@CONTRACTOR.NET)
Subject: Re: Wetland Hydrology Indicators in Soils
)Lenore Vasilas wrote:
))
)) Lenore Vasilas wrote:
)) """I was wondering if anyone has observed wetland hydrology (anaerobic
)) conditions
)) in the upper part) indicators in the soil or indicators that a soil with
))hydric
)) morphology no longer is receiving wetland hydrology (the soil has been
)) effectively
)) drained). I!am an NRCS soil scientist working with the Corps of Engineers
)) regulatory program. There has been a great deal of discussion and confusion
)) over
)) identifying wetland hydrology in seasonally saturated wetlands because
))most of
)) the
)) indicators that can be used! according to the Corps of Engineers 87
))manual are
)) based on either having the water there at the time you look at it or signs of
)) inundation or flooding. The only indicator that is found in these seasonally
)) saturated wetlands is local soil survey data an!d because this is a secondary
)) indicator of hydrology you need two. I would appreciate your suggestions or
)) comments on this subject. Thanks in advance.""""
)) Lenore Matula Vasilas
)) Soil Scientist
)) (410)962-6011
)) CENAB-OP-RX
)) PO Box 1715
)) Baltimore, MD 2203-1715
)) Lenore.Matula@ccmail.nab.usace.army.mil
))
DEAR LENORE:
In regards to the mitigation sites you are investigating: the company I am
employed with (T-G-L, INC) has worked with the Corp of Engineers on a
number of projects in Oregon and Washington, when regarding geomembrane
liners to be installed for preservation means or secondary containment.
Should you ever have a need for such materials (HDPE, PVC, LLDPE, Geogrid,
etc.), please be sure to let me know, and I will see if we can be of some
assistance. I would be happy to consult or advise you on any technical
questions that might arise.
Regards,
Codi Hall
________________________
TGL, Incorporated
1867 North 17th Street
Suite A
Springfield, Oregon 97477
(541)988-3431 tel
(541)747-9660 fax
tgl@contractor.net
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4404
"Lining Paths with Quality Around the World"
________________________
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 10 Jul 1997 to 11 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:02:11 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 11 Jul 1997 to 13 Jul 1997
There is one message totalling 14 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Pollution Engineering January Software Guide
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:29:00 -0400
From: SkyGrass@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Pollution Engineering January Software Guide
att: Ms. Hodson:
Address for Curtis Michel is
90 Broad Street (19th floor)
New York NY 10004
Thank you.
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 11 Jul 1997 to 13 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:02:15 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 13 Jul 1997 to 14 Jul 1997
There are 2 messages totalling 53 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. EM38
2. Agricultural info
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:20:52 +0300
From: Shabbir Shahid (sshahid@KISR.EDU.KW)
Subject: EM38
I am planning to map soil salinity in some areas of Kuwait. Does anybody
help me in getting the current price of Electromagnetic 38 (EM38).
Thank you
Dr. Shabbir A. Shahid
AAD/FRD
sshahid@kisr.edu.kw
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:01:00 -0700
From: Guy Yeates (YEATES@CABI.MSM.CGNET.COM)
Subject: Re: Agricultural info
Chris Pritchard asked asked about "...agricultural sources of
information that come on disc or cd that cover aspects like soils, plant
disease's, plant pests anything really as long as its related to
agriculture".
Our 'CAB abstracts' database, comprising over 3 million abstracts of books,
papers, etc published on agriculture, is available on cd. A number of
subsets are available one of which is the 'Soil-cd'. For more info. please
go via "publications catalogue" on our website at http://www.cabi.org/
On another point:
For those of you interested in phosphorus movement CAB International has
recently (12 June 1997) published a new book called "Phosphorus Loss from
Soil to Water"
(edited by H. Tunney, O.T. Carton, P.C. Brookes, A. E. Johnston,
œ65.00/US$120.00 - in hardback).
Guy Yeates
Editor for 'Irrigation & Drainage Abstracts'
Assist. Editor for 'Soils & Fertilizers'
*************************************
CAB INTERNATIONAL
Wallingford, Oxfordshire,
OX10 8DE, UK
yeates@cabi.msm.cgnet.com
************************************
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 13 Jul 1997 to 14 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:02:44 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 14 Jul 1997 to 16 Jul 1997
There is one message totalling 38 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. air bioremediation (fwd)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:08:29 -0800
From: Edwin B Kroeger (ffebk1@AURORA.ALASKA.EDU)
Subject: air bioremediation (fwd)
This is a message that appeared on the Biogroup that someone here could
probably answer. Thanks.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:08:49 -0600
From: Bruce Dewar (dewar@telusplanet.net)
Reply-To: Bioremediation (bioremediation@bio.gzea.com)
To: Multiple recipients of list bioremediation (bioremediation@bio.gzea.com)
Subject: Re: BioGroup: air bioremediation
Question:
I am responsible for the clean-up and remediaiton of a pipeline
break leaking raw crude and produced water onto a cultivated field and
into a nearby slough.
From my experience the oil can be aerated in the topsoil and
over a relatively (1yr.) short period of time breakdown. But I am more
concerned with the very high salt (NaCl) content of the produced water
that has saturated the soil.
One method proposed to me has been to treat the contaminated
area with CaNO3. Thereby decreasing the SAR (sodium absorbtion rate)
and bringing the soil back into productivity.
Any suggestions regarding either the oil or salt problem would
be appreciated.
Bruce Dewar
Triad Technologies Inc.
Alberta
Dewar@telusplanet.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 14 Jul 1997 to 16 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:03:08 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 16 Jul 1997 to 18 Jul 1997
There are 5 messages totalling 190 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Thermal conductivity
2. ENVENG-L: Soil Cement Chemistry (fwd) (2)
3. (Fwd) Thermal conductivity
4. Waste & Remediation Software? -Reply
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:13:39 +0000
From: Ali Reza Movahedi Naeini (PEV94AM@WYE.AC.UK)
Subject: Thermal conductivity
Hi
I am interested in literatures about thermal conductivity variations
in diffrent soil textures with regard to organic matter
incorporation. I have already found literatures about thermal
conductivity in sandy soils by incorporation but not fine textured
soils. I want basically know whether organic matter incorporation in
all soils reduces the thermal conductivity and diffusivity or in some
soils there is a opposite effect and what is the extent of variation
in different soils.
Any literature or comment is highly appreciated.
Thanks
Ali Movahedi
Ali Reza Movahedi Naeini Ph.D Student Wye College
University of London,Wye Near Ashford,Kent TN25 5AH
Phone Office :01233 812401 EXT:391
Phone Hostel :01233 812012 Room Nomber-9
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:45:03 -0800
From: Edwin B Kroeger (ffebk1@AURORA.ALASKA.EDU)
Subject: ENVENG-L: Soil Cement Chemistry (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:21:55 +0000
From: Paul Meyer (pmeyer@langan.com)
To: ENVENG-L@cedar.univie.ac.at
Subject: ENVENG-L: Soil Cement Chemistry
Dear Group,
I have a project that involves soil stabilization. I am trying to
evaluate the merits of traditional soil-cement vs. soil-fly_ash.
Does anyone have a good reference that discusses the chemistry of
cement-type solidification reactions. I am specifically looking for
info on the "posilonic reaction" that seems to be the key to this
type of soil stabilization.
I will post a list of all suggest references from the replies that I
recieve. Any personal knowledge or insights would also be
appreciated. Thanx!!
Regards,
Paul
Paul Z. Meyer, Jr
Senior Staff Chemist
Langan Engineering and Environmental Services, Inc.
River Drive Center One
Elmwood Park, NJ 07407-1338 USA
201/794-6900 x281 fax 201/794-0366
pmeyer@langan.com
-
message sent by enveng-l@cedar.univie.ac.at
to signoff from the list, send an email to
majordomo@cedar.univie.ac.at
the message body should read
unsubscribe enveng-l your@email.address
-
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:26:53 +0000
From: Ali Reza Movahedi Naeini (pev94am@WYE.AC.UK)
Subject: (Fwd) Thermal conductivity
Hi
I am interested in literatures about thermal conductivity variations
in diffrent soil textures with regard to organic matter
incorporation. I have already found literatures about thermal
conductivity in sandy soils by incorporation but not fine textured
soils. I want basically know whether organic matter incorporation in
all soils reduces the thermal conductivity and diffusivity or in some
soils there is a opposite effect and what is the extent of variation
in different soils.
Any literature or comment is highly appreciated.
Thanks
Ali Movahedi
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:23:38 -0700
From: "J.D. Oster" (oster@MAIL.UCR.EDU)
Subject: Re: ENVENG-L: Soil Cement Chemistry (fwd)
Paul: you could try to check with Sid Diamond at Purdue University. In the
60's he studied the reactions of calcium oxide with soils under the
direction of Dr. J. White. Sid may have retired from the Civil Engineering
Department at Purdue. In those days the jargon was soil cement. Sid found
that calcium oxide and soils reacted to form a silicate mineral, the name
of which I am unable to recall. So try to locate Dr. Sid Diamond at Purdue,
if that doesn't work contact Dr. J. White, who is retired from the AGronomy
Department, but still was active when I visited with him about one year
ago. At 11:45 AM 7/18/97 -0800, you wrote:
)---------- Forwarded message ----------
)Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:21:55 +0000
)From: Paul Meyer (pmeyer@langan.com)
)To: ENVENG-L@cedar.univie.ac.at
)Subject: ENVENG-L: Soil Cement Chemistry
)
)Dear Group,
)
)I have a project that involves soil stabilization. I am trying to
)evaluate the merits of traditional soil-cement vs. soil-fly_ash.
)Does anyone have a good reference that discusses the chemistry of
)cement-type solidification reactions. I am specifically looking for
)info on the "posilonic reaction" that seems to be the key to this
)type of soil stabilization.
)
)I will post a list of all suggest references from the replies that I
)recieve. Any personal knowledge or insights would also be
)appreciated. Thanx!!
)
)Regards,
)
)Paul
)
)
)Paul Z. Meyer, Jr
)Senior Staff Chemist
)Langan Engineering and Environmental Services, Inc.
)River Drive Center One
)Elmwood Park, NJ 07407-1338 USA
)201/794-6900 x281 fax 201/794-0366
)pmeyer@langan.com
)-
)message sent by enveng-l@cedar.univie.ac.at
)to signoff from the list, send an email to
)majordomo@cedar.univie.ac.at
)the message body should read
)unsubscribe enveng-l your@email.address
)-
)
J.D.(Jim) Oster
Soil and Water Specialist and Adjunct Professor
Soil and Environmental Sciences
University of California
Riverside, CA.
FAX: 909 787-5522
P.O Box 1344
Graeagle CA 96103
Telehones
VOICE:
Riverside Office 909 787-5100 Nov 1997
Graeagle Office 916 8360938 May through October 1997
e-mail: Oster@mail.ucr.edu
http://esce.ucr.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:19:17 -0400
From: Darrin Machay (Dmachay@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: Waste & Remediation Software? -Reply
Please send me a copy of the free software. Thanks
Darrin Machay
22900 Governors Hwy.
Matteson, IL 60443
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 16 Jul 1997 to 18 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:02:23 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 18 Jul 1997 to 20 Jul 1997
There is one message totalling 106 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. hoofed animal erosion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:21:12 +0900
From: David Mussared (mussared@WEBMEDIA.COM.AU)
Subject: hoofed animal erosion
Hi all
(apologies for cross-postings)
I am forwarding the following email on behalf of a German scientist
(temporarily based in Tel Aviv) who has recently published results of a
mathematical model he has used to predict the evolution of pedestrian
trails (useful for designing park walks and etc.).
The scientist (Dirk Helbing) is now interested in extending the model to
animal trails, and to predicting erosion problems triggered by such trails.
He is interested in literature on the impact of hoofed animals (and
particularly animal trails) on soil erosion.
Please direct replies to Dr Helbing
(helbing@theo2.physik.uni-stuttgart.de). His message follows:
)
)Subject: Erosion and Trail Formation: Request for References and
)Photographs
)
)Dear Recipient,
)
)as a scientist, I am interested in the problem of animal trail formation
)and its impact on land erosion. Since this is a very serious problem,
)I am recently developing a computer program for the simulation of this
)complex phenomenon. In future publications, I would like to cite any
)relevant references related to this topic. I am grateful for any hints.
)
)Moreover, if you have any photographs related to this topic and would
)be willing to prepare copies of them, I would be very happy to receive
)them, in order to illustrate this serious ecological problem. The photographs
)will be used for scientific publications. In case a commercial journal is
)interested to reproduce your photographs, you will even earn the money
)they pay. In any case, the name of the photographer will be mentioned at
)every place, where the photograph appears.
)
)Therefore, please do a favour to science and ecology!
)
)If you send me photographs to the address below, please include
)a signed letter of copyright transfer agreement like the one
)below:
)
)Name
)Address
)Phone
)Fax (if any)
)e-mail (if any)
)
)
) COPYRIGHT TRANSFER AGREEMENT
)
)Herewith, I permit Dr. Dirk Helbing to use the photographical material
)given to him in scientific publications free of charge, if it is
)explicitly mentioned from whom the material stems. I also agree with a
)commercial reproduction of the material on the condition that I
)receive the respective honorary.
)
)Place, Date Signature
)
)
)Thank you very much for your support!
)
)Yours sincerely,
)
)Dirk Helbing.
)
)STOCHASTIC MODELS...TRAFFIC DYNAMICS...BOLTZMANN EQUATIONS...BEHAVIORAL
)MODELS...
)
) PD Dr. Dirk Helbing
) Department of Fluid Mechanics and Heat Transfer
) Faculty of Engineering
) Tel Aviv University
) Tel Aviv, 69978
) Israel
)
) Phone: +972-3-640-8657
) Fax: +972-3-640-7334
)
) e-mail: helbing@theo2.physik.uni-stuttgart.de
) www: http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/UNIuser/thphys/helbing.html
)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
David Mussared
'Land and Water News'
36 Nation Ridge Road
ALDGATE SA 5154
Phone: 08-8388-5608, Fax: 08-8388-5372
email: mussared@webmedia.com.au
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 18 Jul 1997 to 20 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:03:19 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 20 Jul 1997 to 22 Jul 1997
There is one message totalling 30 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Free Environmental Software
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:14:39 +0000
From: "Franklin B. Burrows" (franklin@ABRAHAM.GEOREF.COM)
Subject: Free Environmental Software
GEOREF Systems Ltd. is pleased to announce the release of the
EnviroBrowser. The EnviroBrowser provides an easy-to-use interface to a
database of thousands of physical and chemical environmental parameters.
These parameters include hydraulic conductivity, porosity, adsorption,
dispersivity, half-lives, and EPA priority pollutants.
GEOREF is giving the software away for free, providing you
complete the on-line survey at our WWW site, WWW.GEOREF.COM. The free
version of the software is fully-functional. If you register for a
licensed version of the EnviroBrowser ($69.00), you will receive an
unlocked version of the database with the ability to add your own
parameters to the database.
We welcome your visit to our WWW site to complete our survey and download
a copy of the EnviroBrowser.
========================
GEOREF Systems Ltd.
~timeless relationships~
www.georef.com
========================
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 20 Jul 1997 to 22 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:04:07 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 22 Jul 1997 to 23 Jul 1997
There are 3 messages totalling 135 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Plastic Flow of Shales (fwd)
2. Statistical Question (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:58:27 -0800
From: Edwin B Kroeger (ffebk1@AURORA.ALASKA.EDU)
Subject: Plastic Flow of Shales (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:33:15 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jim Smith UT (jsmith@sarek.osmre.gov)
To: groundwater@ias.champlain.edu
Subject: Plastic Flow of Shales
In dealing with coal mines and related hydrogeology I am often told that
the shales associated with the coal seams have very low permeability and
that plastic flow heals or seals fractures and cracks in these shales that
may develop either naturally or as a result of subsidence. This has
always been accepted, but I've begun to wonder if a few hundred feet of
overburden - up to 2000 feet maximum - really provide enough pressure to
cause plastic flow in lithified shale.
Does anyone in this group know of sources of information or studies on the
flow of shales, in particular under fairly shallow conditions? This is
really a question for a rheologist, but maybe one of you has some insight
and can direct my search.
James D. SMITH
Utah Div. of Oil, Gas, and Mining
SLC, UT
jsmith@osmre.gov | If history teaches anything it is
nrdomain.nrogm.jsmith@state.ut.us | that we will be sued whether we act
| quickly and decisively or slowly and
STANDARD DISCLAIMERS | cautiously.
--Groundwater Mailing List-------www.groundwater.com--------
To unsubscribe, send a message DIRECTLY to MAJORDOMO at:
majordomo@ias.champlain.edu with "unsubscribe groundwater" or
"unsubscribe groundwater-digest" in the body, (no quotes).
Posting address: GROUNDWATER@ias.champlain.edu
Administrative problems: e-mail kenbannister@groundwater.com
This month's sponsor: *** Scientific Software Group ***
** info@scisoftware.com http://www.scisoftware.com Ph:(703) 620-9214 **
"Hydrology, Hydrogeology, Air Pollution Bioremediation & Other Environmental
Software."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:05:00 -0700
From: "Goyne, Keith W." (Goyne@AGRONOMY.CAS.PSU.EDU)
Subject: Statistical Question
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have a question regarding dependence or independence of samples. I have
soil solution chemistry data for 15 sampling periods in the fall, winter,
and spring (five times for each season) for three randomly placed lysimeters
in the same soil type. Each lysimeter is placed underneath the A horizon.
My question is the following: are the five samples collected in the
#1lysimeter, during the same season, dependent or independent from each
other?
My committee and the stastical consultants I have spoken to can not come to
a consensus as to where to treat them as dependent upon one another or
independent from each other. Those in favor of dependence suggest the
concentration values obtained are dependent upon the initial conditions of
the soil and the events previous. They regard the five samples as
pseudo-replicates and suggest creating a mean for each of the three
lysimeters. Essentially this creates n=3. Those in favor of independence
argue the environmental conditions are different for each sampling in a
season. Soil moisture can change due to precipitation events, precipitation
chemistry may vary, temperature differences, canopy changes, etc. Thus
providing n=15.
I would appreciate very much any comments and suggestions anyone has
regarding this problem. Please do not comment on the design aspects of this
example, my design is more extensive than described above.
Thank you for your time.
Keith W. Goyne
Soil Science Graduate Student
The Pennsylvania State University
goyne@agronomy.cas.psu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:32:38 +1200
From: "S.J. Officer" (S.J.Officer@MASSEY.AC.NZ)
Subject: Re: Statistical Question
Heelo Keith
At 08:05 pm 23/07/97 -0700, you wrote:r is placed underneath the A horizon.
) My question is the following: are the five samples collected in the
)#1lysimeter, during the same season, dependent or independent from each
)other?
I am a bit puzzled as to how you are apparently constructing an anova style
analysis with
no replicates, unless you are moving into mulitvariate analysis, or, are
you actually
asking about the best random-fixed effects split in your stats model?.
I have collected information, over a year, from lysimeters placed at two
sites,
which contained a range of related soil types. The principle factor
affecting nutrient
leaching has been the chemistry of the exchangeable fraction, while my most
stable
factor was time.
However, I guess if both these factors were held constant, then anion
production and
the water flow mixing patterns within the profile might be your principal
variants.
I suspect that you will require some spatial variability studies, in order
to determine
whether the lysimeters are independant from each other, with respect to
these types
of factors, or whether you have purely random variation.
Sally
???!!!!oooooOOOOOPPPPPSSSsssssss.....
Sally Officer
New Zealand
"Very sad life...probably have very sad death,
But at least there is symmetry."
(Zathros, bb5)
;-)
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 22 Jul 1997 to 23 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:01:37 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 23 Jul 1997 to 24 Jul 1997
There are 3 messages totalling 171 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Statistical Question -Answer
2. Statistical Question
3. Statisitcal Question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:24:51 +0100
From: Torsten Muller (Torsten.Muller@AGSCI.KVL.DK)
Subject: Statistical Question -Answer
Dear Keath!
)))))))) your question was:
I have a question regarding dependence or independence of samples. I
have
soil solution chemistry data for 15 sampling periods in the fall, winter,
and spring (five times for each season) for three randomly placed lysimeters
in the same soil type. Each lysimeter is placed underneath the A horizon.
My question is the following: are the five samples collected in the
#1lysimeter, during the same season, dependent or independent from each
other?
My committee and the stastical consultants I have spoken to can not come
to
a consensus as to where to treat them as dependent upon one another or
independent from each other. Those in favor of dependence suggest the
concentration values obtained are dependent upon the initial conditions of
the soil and the events previous. They regard the five samples as
pseudo-replicates and suggest creating a mean for each of the three
lysimeters. Essentially this creates n=3. Those in favor of independence
argue the environmental conditions are different for each sampling in a
season. Soil moisture can change due to precipitation events, precipitation
chemistry may vary, temperature differences, canopy changes, etc. Thus
providing n=15.
I would appreciate very much any comments and suggestions anyone has
regarding this problem. Please do not comment on the design aspects of
this
example, my design is more extensive than described above.
(((((((((((((((((my answer:
The solution samples taken from ONE lysimeter sevreral times during a
certain period are clearly dependend from each other. They originate from
the same soil column. Hence, leaching during a previous period of
sampling (= removing of soil components) will have concequences for
leaching in a later period. You consultants fail if they assume that soil
moisture, chemistry, temperature and canopy change independently. All
these factors influence the SAME lysimeter over the WHOLE experimental
period. Hence they are also influenced by themself. The following statistics
can be performed in your experiment:
1. Separately for each lysimeter, you can sum up leached components
(f.ex. Nitrate) during the 15 samplings, or you can calculate the mean of
measured parameters (f. ex. pH) if the sampling periods were equal, or you
can calculate a balanced mean of measured parameters if the sampling
periods were not equal. From the totals or the means of the three lysimeters
you can calculate an overall total or mean and the corresponding statistical
error with n=3 (DF=2!) for each parameter.
2. From the three single values (deriving from the three lysimeters) of each
sampling period you can calculate a mean value and the corresponding
statistical error with n=3 (DF=2!) for each parameter and each sampling
period.
However, scince you do not have independend replicates you can NOT
perform any statistical test on the significance of the difference between
the single sampling periods or of the general difference between the three
lysimeters. The latter would be possible if using the sampling dates as
"pseudo-replicates" (what is that?) as suggested by your consultants.
However, this would be statistically incorrect and the results of those
calculations would be worthless.
The question you rise is very important for studies of the time course of soil
parameters in general. In contrast to your lysimeter experiment, ordinary plot
experiments (three or more replicates for each independend factor) with a
periodical parameter mesurement are easyer to deal with. If taking soil
samples from a plot you will remove the soil that is investigated. At the next
sampling date you will sample from the same plot, but a different soil
sample. If the distance between these soil samples is big enough (but still
within the same plot) they can be assumed as independend. In this case
statistical tests are possible.
Best wishes from Copenhagen
Dr. Torsten Mueller
The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University (KVL)
Dep. of Agricultutral Sciences
Plant Nutrition and Soil Fertility Laboratory
Thorvaldsensvej 40, DK-1871 Frederiksberg C (Copenhagen), Denmark
phone: +45 35283499, fax: +45 35283460
e-mail: tm@kvl.dk, http://www.agsci.kvl.dk/~tomuj5
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:02:37 -0500
From: Jeffrey White (jgwhite@SATURN.MSSTATE.EDU)
Subject: Re: Statistical Question
)I have a question regarding dependence or independence of samples.
)have soil solution chemistry data for 15 sampling periods in the
)fall, winter, and spring (five times for each season) for three
)randomly placed lysimeters in the same soil type. Each lysimeter is
)placed underneath the A horizon. My question is the following: are
)the five samples collected in the #1lysimeter, during the same season,
)dependent or independent from each other?
Keith:
I am an agronomist, not a statistician, but I will offer my two cents:
What you describe is a time series experiment, or it might be termed a
repeated measures design (although this term is reserved by some for
designs where the experimental treatments are applied at different times
to the same individual experimental unit). Because you are measuring the
same lysimeter in the same location, observations made at different times
are likely to be (auto)correlated, i.e., not independent. This is true
for all 15 of your observations, not just the five made in any particular
season. It is possible, however, that the different measurements are
independent. There are ways to test whether different observations on the
same lysimeter are correlated over time. One is to consider time as a
fixed treatment factor in your AOV. Another is to apply a test of
autocorrelation such as the Durbin-Watson. My guess is that you will find
that the data are not independent. However, should they prove
independent, then you could probably consider measurements made at
different times to be "pseudoreplicates" and do your analysis accordingly.
Good luck,
Jeffrey G. White, Ph.D.
Assistant Agronomist - MAFES
Pontotoc Experiment Station
8320 Hwy 15 South
Pontotoc, MS 38863
Tel: 601-489-4621; FAX: 601-489-6011
email: jgwhite@ra.msstate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:02:54 +0200
From: Paul Sheppard (sheppard@PORTHOS.BIO.UB.ES)
Subject: Re: Statisitcal Question
) )placed underneath the A horizon. My question is the following: are
) )the five samples collected in the #1lysimeter, during the same season,
) )dependent or independent from each other?
)
) What you describe is a time series experiment, or it might be termed a
) repeated measures design (although this term is reserved by some for
) designs where the experimental treatments are applied at different times
) to the same individual experimental unit). Because you are measuring the
) same lysimeter in the same location, observations made at different times
) are likely to be (auto)correlated, i.e., not independent. This is true
) for all 15 of your observations, not just the five made in any particular
) season.
I might add that autocorrelation in time-serial data is easily removed
using Box-Jenkins ARIMA modeling, which removes from the original series
auto-regressive (AR), trend (I), and moving-average (MA) processes and
results in a series of white noise, i.e., serially independent data. This
is an important quantitative tool in many scientific fields, and it is a
part of most commercial statistical software packages.
Paul R. Sheppard
NSF-NATO Post-Doctoral Fellow
Dept. d'Ecologia, Univ. de Barcelona office: (343) 402-1508
Av. Diagonal 645 fax: (343) 411-1438
08028 Barcelona ESPANYA sheppard@porthos.bio.ub.es
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 23 Jul 1997 to 24 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:01:39 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 24 Jul 1997 to 25 Jul 1997
There are 2 messages totalling 92 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Statistical Question
2. Plastic Flow of Shales (fwd)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:19:19 +0200
From: Paul Sheppard (sheppard@PORTHOS.BIO.UB.ES)
Subject: Re: Statistical Question
) )placed underneath the A horizon. My question is the following: are
) )the five samples collected in the #1lysimeter, during the same season,
) )dependent or independent from each other?
)
) What you describe is a time series experiment, or it might be termed a
) repeated measures design (although this term is reserved by some for
) designs where the experimental treatments are applied at different times
) to the same individual experimental unit). Because you are measuring the
) same lysimeter in the same location, observations made at different times
) are likely to be (auto)correlated, i.e., not independent. This is true
) for all 15 of your observations, not just the five made in any particular
) season.
I might add that autocorrelation in time-serial data is easily removed
using Box-Jenkins ARIMA modeling, which removes from the original series
auto-regressive (AR), trend (I), and moving-average (MA) processes and
results in a series of white noise, i.e., serially independent data. This
is an important quantitative tool in many scientific fields, and it is a
part of most commercial statistical software packages.
Paul R. Sheppard
NSF-NATO Post-Doctoral Fellow
Dept. d'Ecologia, Univ. de Barcelona office: (343) 402-1508
Av. Diagonal 645 fax: (343) 411-1438
08028 Barcelona ESPANYA sheppard@porthos.bio.ub.es
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:33:50 -0500
From: Britt Maxwell (maxwellb@JUNO.COM)
Subject: Re: Plastic Flow of Shales (fwd)
)From: Jim Smith UT (jsmith@sarek.osmre.gov)
)To: groundwater@ias.champlain.edu
)Subject: Plastic Flow of Shales
)
)In dealing with coal mines and related hydrogeology I am often told
)that the shales associated with the coal seams have very low
permeability
)and that plastic flow heals or seals fractures and cracks in these
shales
)that may develop either naturally or as a result of subsidence. This
has
)always been accepted, but I've begun to wonder if a few hundred feet
)of overburden - up to 2000 feet maximum - really provide enough pressure
)to cause plastic flow in lithified shale.
)Does anyone in this group know of sources of information or studies on
)the flow of shales, in particular under fairly shallow conditions? This
)is really a question for a rheologist, but maybe one of you has some
)insight and can direct my search.
)
)James D. SMITH
)Utah Div. of Oil, Gas, and Mining
)SLC, UT
)jsmith@osmre.gov
Jim
Plastic behavior of a lithified strata is of course a function of depth.
I expect
it would begin showing some characteristics at a few hundred feet and
increase
with depth. A strata with pure plastic behavior would not fracture to
begin with.
A fractured shale would seal itself through many different mechanisms if
it is
below the influence of surface weathering. The sealing processes are
occurring
very slowly (at geological rates). High carbonate shales seal themselves
through
leaching and redeposition of the carbonate even in the zone of
weathering. There
are a lot of factors involved, depth, mineralogy, and tectonic activity.
A good oil
and gas person would be more helpful, but more detailed information would
be
needed.
Britt Maxwell
Maxwell Engineering
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 24 Jul 1997 to 25 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:02:20 -0600
From: Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@crcvms.unl.edu)
Subject: SOILS-L Digest - 25 Jul 1997 to 28 Jul 1997
There is one message totalling 17 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Data transformation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:58:14 +0200
From: Clara Marti (cmarti@POSTA.UNIZAR.ES)
Subject: Data transformation
Dear group,
I'm working on data refered on the soil hidric content. My question is: may
I have to transform my data (expressed as g of water /100 g dry soil) to
make an ANOVA analysis?.Altthough they are distributed normaly?
I would appreciate very much any comments and suggestions.
Thank you for your time
Clara
------------------------------
End of SOILS-L Digest - 25 Jul 1997 to 28 Jul 1997
**************************************************
Prepared by Steve Modena, AB4EL
Suggestions and comments to: modena@SunSITE.unc.edu