Archive SOILS-L: file log9507, part 1/1, size 97890 bytes:

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Please read and if you are interested reply *as soon as possible* as we are
exceeding our deadline. This is a reposting after less succesful attemps
elswhere.
Thank you.

The European Commission has recently issued a Communication to the Council
and the European Parliament on "Directions for the EU on Environmental
Indicators and Green National Accounting" (COM (94) 670 final). In the
context of this initiative, Eurostat (the Statistical Office of the European
Communities) has launched a series of projects aimed at improving
statistical environ mental information.

Since this task will imply great efforts of the EU Member States'
Statistical Services, the Commission has decided to seek the advice of
environmental experts *in all EU Member States*. These experts will be
asked, by way of short written questionnaires, to define the best possible
indica tors to describe human activities affecting the environment, and to
assess their relative importan ce.

As a first step, Eurostat has asked us to establish a preliminary list of
experts for the policy field "Natural Resources". The typical profile of the
experts we are looking for would be a natural scientist (preferably
university lecturer or researcher) from a European member state with a broad
knowledge of natural resources and at least five years of professional
experience. We hope that you could help us to identify senior experts who
fit the desired profile. Since we need these names *urgently*, we ask that
you E-mail us some names and addresses. Please be as complete as possible.

One of the goals of this project is to find areas of agreement as well as
disagreement between the "societal actors" in environmental policy. We will
therefore ask, at a later stage, such actors, eg. industry & agricultural
federations, environmental ministries and environmental NGOs to choose an
expert from the preliminary list who would reflect their particular view on
the subject. Therefore, although we will put the names on the *proposal*
list, we cannot guarantee that they will be incuded in the final list of
experts chosen by the societal actors. We will E-mail any respondents later
with updates on the project.

Institute:
Department:
Titles:
Name:
Postal address:
(Tel, Fax, E-mail):
(Discipline)

***We are also grateful for suggestions for other experts in or outside your
country but within the EU Member States. Thank you!

Institute:
Department:
Titles:
Name:
Postal address:
(Tel, Fax, E-mail):
(Discipline)

Institute:
Department:
Titles:
Name:
Postal address:
(Tel, Fax, E-mail):
(Discipline)

Institute:
Department:
Titles:
Name:
Postal address:
(Tel, Fax, E-mail):
(Discipline)

Thank you very much for your cooperation.
INFOPLAN Environmental Consultants
Voorstraat 15
NL-2611 JJ Delft
TEL: ++31.15.122251
FAX: ++31.15.142100
E-mail: 4gever@bart.nl

Yours sincerely,
INFOPLAN Environmental Consultants,
Andre Viergever M.Sc.

Thanks, we did in fact do exactly that; if this little Fish and Wildlife
grant happens, it'll go to the 'Resource Conservation District' in this
side of the county -- Ca. agency, NRCS staffer.

This particular agent hasn't done this before though -- their RCD mostly
did stock ponds, and just wound that up and sold off the earth moving tools.

So literally, they're a couple decades behind on soils handling approaches.
Eager to learn. They don't have Net access yet.

The NRCS guy wearing his NRCS hat has a whole _lot_ to say but when he's
wearing his RCD hat he's real busy and needs me to help ask for help with
this stuff -- he goes via paper or phone calls to his own info sources.

But neither he nor I nor the locals have an inventory plan ready to go nor
anyone I can just call up for directions -- thus we're asking around.

> What effect does no-till have on soil pH?

I am not sure about the pH hypothesis (somebody else in the group may be better able to answer this), but you could be experiencing a problem with your carbon to nitrogen (C:N) ratio. Although you don't state the previous crop, it is probably barley, and

You may have this problem for the first few years of no-till, but once the organic matter in the soil is turning over at approximately the same rate as it is being produced, then the situation will stabilize. Hence my suggestion is to fertilize with nitro

Hope that this helps!

____________________________________________________

Daniel Mendham
CRC for Temperate Hardwood Forestry
Tasmania, Australia

Telephone (international) + 61 02 207967
Fax (international) + 61 02 207942
E-mail D.Mendham@tas.for.csiro.au ____________________________________________________

Dear Members,

I am a new member to this list. As such, I would like to introduce
myself first.

My full name is Selvarajah PATHMARAJAH. I prefer to be addressed by
my given name (i.e. Pathmarajah). I am a faculty member attached to
the Department of Agricultural Engineering, Faculty of Agriculture,
University of Peradeniya, Sri Lanka. Currently, I am reading for my
Doctoral Degree in Irrigation Engineering and Management at the
Asian Institute of Technology, Bangkok, Thailand.

My main area of interest is on environmental aspects of irrigated
agriculture, particularly fertilizer and pesticide use in lowland
rice cultivation. As such, I am interested in modelling contaminant
transport in suspended sediments. My further interests are on soil
physics and irrigation and drainage.

My question to the net is that how can we effectively model
sediment detachment by rainfall and runoff in a flat topography
where the velocity of surface flow is very low and standing water
is always present. Is there any effective empirical or mathematical
formula exists to describe the detachment of soil as affected by
surface water depth ?

Thanking you in advance.

Sincerely,

S. Pathmarajah
Mail No. #443
Asian Institute of Technology
G.P.O Box 2754
Bangkok 10501
Thailand.

Dear Andre

I read your message in the soils-l mailing list and I am replying in case my
curriculum can be of interest for your activities.
I am a faculty researcher of the university of Padova, north-eastern Italy.
I have a 10 year experience on agro-environmental studies. In particular my
interests focus the impacts of fertilizers and pesticides on the
environment. The tools I am more familiar with are simulation models and
geographical information systems.
Recently I started a work co-sponsored by the E.U. and the National Research
Council of Italy, in which I am working at the definition of a list of
environmental indicators to compare the impacts of agricultural systems on
water and soil. Those indicators can be calculated both on experimental
records and on model outputs and can be subsequently used in multiple
criteria decision support systems together with other technical and
economical indexes.
>
>Institution: Universita' degli Studi di Padova (University of Padova)
>Department: Agronomia Ambientale e Produzioni Vegetali (Agronomy,
Environment and Crop Productions)
>Titles: (Dr) Researcher, Temporary Professor
>Name: Carlo Giupponi
>Postal address: 6, Via Gradenigo=20
I-35131 Padova, Italia=20
>(Tel, Fax, E-mail): ++39-49-8071348, ++39-49-8070850,
giupponi@ipdunidx.unipd.it
>(Discipline): Agronomy, Environmental Sciences
Modelling, Geographical Information Systems
----------------------------------------------------
Dr Carlo Giupponi
Dipartimento di Agronomia - Universit=E0 di Padova
I-35131 Padova Italy
Tel. ++39-49-8071348 Fax ++39-49-8070850
----------------------------------------------------

Hello everybody,
I just added my address at this mailing list and, as suggested by the
administrator I am sending this message to present myself.

My name is Carlo Giupponi and I am a faculty member (researcher and
temporary professor) at the University of Padova (Italy), Dipartimento
Agronomia Ambientale e Produzioni Vegetali" (Department of Agronomy Crop
Production and the Environment=94.

My research activity focuses on the relationships between agriculture and
environment. Specific interests include: sustainable agriculture, low input
agricultural systems, non-point source pollution, simulation modelling, land
surveying and mapping, geographical information systems and remote sensing.

My 'burning' issue is presently the processing of the outputs of non-point
pollution models (or field experiments) to calculate comparative indicators
(e.g. Eutrophication Risk Index) to be used in multi-criteria decision
support systems toghether with other technical and economic indicators.=20
I found particularly difficult to get references about environmental impact
indexes of soil contamination by pesticides.
I would be very glad if any of you have suggestions (references,
conferences, research projects, etc.) about this specific topic.

Thank you=20
----------------------------------------------------
Dr Carlo Giupponi
Dipartimento di Agronomia - Universit=E0 di Padova
I-35131 Padova Italy
Tel. ++39-49-8071348 Fax ++39-49-8070850
----------------------------------------------------

We are hoping that a list subscriber may be able to help us with a problem.
We are in the Agronomyy dept at Penn State Univ and have been recently having
problems with the cadmium reduction column used with a Technicon Autoanalyzer.
The Cd column has been going bad after only a few dozen samples (2M KCl
soil extracts and diluted water samples). Previously we have been able to
analyze several hundred to thousand samples with a single Cd column. These are
columns that we build using granulated cadmium that is copperized using a
copper sulfate solution. Does anyone know of critical steps in the cadmium
preparation and column packing that might affect column lifetime. We have
tried modifying the copperizing step, stopping agitation of the Cd as soon as
colloidal copper appears.This problem has developed within the last month and
we are stumped as to why our columns are not lasting as long as we would like.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
E-mail can be sent to klb157@psuvm.psu.edu or
Butler@agronomy.cas.psu.edu.
thankyou.
kate butler and John Toth

Are there any regulations concerning the allowable level of copper in soils?
The project I am working on involves animal waste lagoons and the application
of the sludge from these lagoons to farm fields.

Any information would be appreciated.
Nanette
Fladungnc@phibred.com

unsuscribe

One possibility is that ammonia based nitrogen fertilizers (urea, anhydrous
ammonia, ammonium nitrate, etc.) are acid forming. With no till the
fertilizers are normally surface applied with no mixing of the "plow layer."
So a shallow surface layer of acid soil can form. The perplexing thing for
me is that you apparently noticed this in the second year. I would think it
would take longer for this acid layer to form than one or two years. Here
in Ohio we have experienced poorer herbicide performance in no till corn
because of this acid layer. This is true for those herbicides which do not
work as well in acid soils (atrazine, for example). The Ohio State
University soil testing lab requires two samples for no till corn and maybe
for other crops as well. One is the normal 6 to 8 inch depth. The other is
a shallow 2 inch surface one for pH. So I'm not surprised by the surface
acid layer forming; I am surprised that it formed so quickly. What was the
previous crop? If it was no till corn, then there could have been quite a
bit of nitrogen fertilizer surface applied. Plowing and tillage doesn't
allow this kind of problem to form because of the mixing action. Maybe some
others will have more ideas. Yours is a good practical question.

Tom Zimmerman, Associate Professor
The Ohio State University Agricultural Technical Institute
1328 Dover Road
Wooster, OH 44691-4000
216-264-3911 ext. 1325
FAX: 216-262-7634

>Question for the group:
>
> What effect does no-till have on soil pH?
>
>I've got limited experience with no-till but I'm encountering an apparent
>problem with low pH in a field that is no-till for the second year. The pH
>of the top inch of soil is only 4.6 but if I take a soil sample from the
>top six inches the pH goes up to 5.5 in soil that has not been cultivated to
>6.3 in soil that has been cultivated.
>
>I have spring barley planted in this field and plants that are growing in
>this top inch of soil are severely stunted and yellow. Where the seed was
>sown slightly deeper and where the soil was cultivated, growth is normal.
>I'm checking for herbicide residue also but feel now that the extremely low
>pH is the problem.
>
>Fertility is also slightly poorer in the no-till soil sample verus the
>conventional
>soil sample when both are taken from that top inch of soil.
>
>Could someone tell me what is happening here or what the solution is?
>Is this normal? Do I just keep planting below this acid band of soil?
>Normal planting depth for barley in my region is one inch.
>
>Thank you,
>Norman Dewar
>Barley, wheat and soybean grower in Prince Edward Island, Canada
>
>
>
>

I am not aware of any regulations regarding copper in soils but that does
not mean that none exist. The Ohio State University Extension recommends
for municipal sewage sludge application these maximum amounts that can be
applied safely for copper:

for soils with a cation exchange capacity from 0 to 5 meq/100 g: 125
pounds/acre
5 to 15 : 250
>15 : 500
These amounts assume a soil pH of 6.5 or greater. It is my understanding
that these amounts can be considered a lifetime loading rate for copper.

Since this sludge is coming from animal waste, is it high in copper? If so,
why? What kind of livestock are we talking about? It would seem that if
the sludge is high in copper and you are going to apply it to farm fields,
you would experience plant growth problems from too much copper.

Hope this helps and that someone else may be able to offer more help.

Tom Zimmerman, Associate Professor
The Ohio State University Agricultural Technical Institute
1328 Dover Rd.
Wooster, OH 44691-4000
216-264-3911 ext. 1325
fax: 216-262-7634

>Are there any regulations concerning the allowable level of copper in soils?
>The project I am working on involves animal waste lagoons and the application
>of the sludge from these lagoons to farm fields.
>
>Any information would be appreciated.
>Nanette
>Fladungnc@phibred.com
>
>

I have heard that there is an agmodels or cropmodels (not sure of the
name) list out there somewhere. Would any anyone who knows the address
for it send it to me. Please reply to me directly, not to the list.

Thanks,

Pat Hill

Recently there was a request for information on crop or agronomic models. I wo
uld appreciate knowing about models that are designed for extension/education u
se. I am particularly interested in those that connect cropping decisions with
water quality issues. Thanks. Charles Shapiro, NERC006.UNLVM.UNL.EDU

unsubscribe soils-l (arul)

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Phil I am interested in apply this analytical method to mine waste
piles. The inability for accurate redox determination at depth
within refuse piles and mine waste facilities has in my experiences
been a major short fall in "judging" the status of sulfides,
selenium, iron, ect. I have briefly investigated the WaterLoo
Sampler and the Neutron Probe (indirect redox method) but the "DIPPY
RIDDLE" (sorry could not resist) sounds less expensive and easier.
Could you provide me with more information. Thanks in advance!

Name:- Joshua, Willie D.
Affiliation:- Organic Waste Recycling Unit
NSW Dept. of Agriculture
Richmond
NSW 2753
Australia
Qualification:BSc, PhD (soil science)
Interests:- Soil Physics, On-farm Irrigation and drainage
Agro-climatology, Land Evaluation and
Land Use Planning
Topic for
dicussion:- Does available soil moisture for plants increase with
the application of biosolids to agricultural lands?

Good question Willie, I also would like to hear definitive answers
to this questions. Are answers different for coarse sands than for
loam and clay soils?
Tom
Tom Hodges, Cropping Systems Modeler
USDA-ARS email: thodges@beta.tricity.wsu.edu
Rt. 2, Box 2953-A voice: 509-786-9207
Prosser, WA 99350 USA Fax: 509-786-9370
== ## Rent this space ## ==
If this represents anything, it is only my opinion.

On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Willie Joshua wrote:

> Topic for
> dicussion:- Does available soil moisture for plants increase with
> the application of biosolids to agricultural lands?
>

On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Willie Joshua wrote:

> Topic for
> dicussion:- Does available soil moisture for plants increase with
> the application of biosolids to agricultural lands?
>

The wuick answer to this would be yes. I am currently researching the
application of oily food wastes on agricultural lands and will be
measuring the water retention of the soil. My literature review has found
that many organic amendments do increase available water but it depends
mostly on application rate. Although my research will not cover the full
range of available water (-30kPa to -1500kPa) I will be measuring water
content at -30 and -100kPa.

Alain Plante
Dept. Land Resource Science
University of Guelph

unsubscribe

Dr. Willie Joshua's asked :- Does available soil moisture for plants
increase with the application of biosolids to agricultural lands?

A good review paper by Berman Hudson (Soil organic matter and available
water capacity, J. Soil & Water Cons., 1994, 49(2):189-194) concludes that
addition of organic matter to soil increases the available soil water
capacity.

Basant Maheshwari

________________________________________________________________
Dr. B.L. Maheshwari
School of Agri. & Rural Development
University of Western Sydney
Richmond, NSW 2753, AUSTRALIA

Email: b.maheshwari@uws.edu.au
Tel.: (61+45) 701 235 or 885 652
Fax: (61+45) 701 750
________________________________________________________________

This is a test.

did the test succeed?

YES

Test was successful
Greg Berry, Centre for Environmental Studies, University of Tasmania, Box
252C, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. 7001.
Phone 002- 202834
002- 202835
Fax 002- 202989

Hello

My name is Greg Berry and I have just begun a PhD at The Centre for
Environmental studies in Tasmania, investigating the safe use of composted
human excreta as a fertiliser. I am focusing on small scale onsite
composting. I am also working on a composting toilet trial project in the
Pacific, and looking at ways of incorporating the composted material within
a sustainable subsistence cultivation system. The coralline soil is poor,
the island is relatively dry, and gardening has not been a traditional
practice in the culture which has relied predominantly on fishing as a food
source.

I would appreciate any advice anyone could give me re contacts and any
relevant resource material including anything written on the use of
composted human exreta as a fertilizer . I initially considered looking at
the function and interactions of microorganisms within the composting
process but was dissuaded from taking this approach. I am now considering
collecting data before and after the application of toilet compost to the
soil, perhaps using an example in Australia and the toilet trial in the
Pacific as a focus for the study.

Does anyone have any suggestions? It would of course be important to look
at the health and safety aspects of using the compost, keeping in mind the
latest thinking (from my reading) that seems to suggest that enteric
viruses and parasite cysts should be considered as much or more than faecal
coliforms or enterococci.

However, I am very interested to see what effects toilet compost has as a
fertiliser and soil improver. That is, as a stable product that is free of
pathogens, of high cation exchange, sufficient biomass potential to improve
soil structure that enhances rhizosphere effect and controls disease.

What is the best way to measure this? Would it be possible for me to use
tests such as chemical analysis, microbial assays, plant assays,
spectroscopy, humidification etc? Are any or some of these better than
others? I do not have a scientific background, so could I learn these
skills myself? I am keen to learn as much as possible. Thanks

Greg Berry, Centre for Environmental Studies, University of Tasmania, Box
252C, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. 7001.
Phone 002- 202834
002- 202835
Fax 002- 202989

test

Greg,

You project sounds most interesting, particularly the field testing
on coralline soils in the Pacific. Having spent 3 years in Kiribati
on a coconut nutrition and home-gardening project, I totally agree
with the need for something/anything that can provide OM and improve
CEC. However, I would caution that many islands cultures really do
rate cleanliness up there with godliness, and hence find anything to
do with excreta, especially human, unacceptable. Thus, allough the
science sounds great, don't forget the socio-cultural perspective if
you are hoping to produce a technology that will actually be used.

Regards,

Julian

-----------------------------------------------------------
Julian J.F. Barr
Department of Agricultural & Environmental Science
King George VI Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU
U.K.

Phone: 0191 222 6000 x6913
Fax: 0191 222 5228
email: J.J.F.Barr@ncl.ac.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------

I have a question to which I would like feed back from the group. Do septic
system additives help? I was contacted by a company promoting their brand
of these products. The company is Miller-Plante, Inc. out of Cliffside
Park, NJ.

The product contains 7 bacteria:

Bacillus subtilis
Bacillus licheniformis
Pseudomonas aeruginosa
Pseudomonas putida
Enterobacter cloacae
Pseudomonas flourescens
Esherichia hermanii

It also contains these enzymes:

Lipase
Amylase
Protease
Cellulase

I have an aerator system instead of a septic system. During the 20 years I
have lived in this house with this system, I have had no problems with this
system. I have not had the tank pumped out even once. Will the use of this
product help my system? Obviously, if I have had no problems, it will be
hard to tell.

Being a soil scientist and someone who basically understands how these
systems work, I am skeptical of products such as these. They remind me of
soil additive products which are claimed to do wonderful things to the soil.
Maybe someone has tested them or had experience with them.

Thank you,
Tom Zimmerman

**********************************************************************
Tommy (Tom) L. Zimmerman, Associate Professor
The Ohio State University Agricultural Technical Institute
1328 Dover Road, Wooster, OH 44691-4000
Voice: 216-264-3911, ext. 1325; FAX: 216-262-7634
E-Mail: tzimmerm@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu OR zimmerman.4@osu.edu
**********************************************************************

<<Do septic system additives help?>>

Several years ago my folk's tank was pumped out. Dad asked the guy if those
additives actually helped. The fellow said the best thing to do is just
leave a few inches of muck in the bottom. As to why the system ran smoothly
for 15 years without any attention at all, and then needed to be cleaned out
every 3 years, the guy remarked "You've got teenage girls now, don't you."
Of course he was right.
>From this I conclude:
1, Keep toilet paper use to a minimum; don't use 25 sheets where 1 will do.
2, Don't flush tissues, sanitary pads or diapers
3, Minimize use of bactericides such as bleach
Seems to work for us.

Closing the human nutrient cycle is something we have to do both in
industrialized and developing countries. Projects on many aspects are under
way at the Swedish University of agricultural Sciences. No result to report
yet.

Have you considered a simple devise to separate unrine and faeces? I
installed one at the "outdoor toilet" in my summer house and I am amazed of
the improvment. The urine can be used directly as fertilizer after
dilution, and the faeces do not smell at all (the childern are delighted)
and need to be taken away with much longer intervals. The challange
probably lies in convincing the locals to water with urine and to work out
routins for handling/composting the faeces. We add wood chips or peat.

As a soil microbiologist I would advise you, learn about the processes and
potential hazards, but do not try to do anything until you have identified
a central microbiological question/problem in YOUR system. Then contact
someone with the required skill to superwise you. You as I work in an
environmental department and we should work with "the whole problem" in the
first case. I am at present busy with application of wood ash to forest
soils, viz closing the nutrient cycling when using bioenergy. I encourage
you and wish you luck. Marianne Clarholm

Marianne Clarholm
Dept. of Ecology and Environmental Reseach
Section for Soil Ecology
Swedish Universlty of Agricultural Sciences
Box 7072
S-750 07 Uppsala
Sweden
tel: +46 18671575
fax: +46 18673430
E-mail: Marianne.Clarholm@emc.slu.se

I suspect that you are right and that this is a similar mixture to the
various "soil activators" that appear from time to time. Apart from
E.hermanni which I cannot readily find any mention, the rest of the
consortium would probably be present in almost any pinch of soil, as
would the enzymes mentioned. The greatest thing about these products is
that they are very unlikely to do any harm whatsoever. As long as they
are relatively expensive the buyer is encouraged to pay more attention to
the system or soil or whatever to see whether the expense was worthwhile
and - BINGO- things seem to improve because more attention is being paid.
Simple really.
Peter Harris,
Soil Science,
Reading University, UK.

Does anyboy have comprehensive informations about
substrate-use-efficiency and energy balances for the decomposition of
different substrates as: glucose, cellulose, hemi-cellulose, lignin, proteins;
possibly also of more complex materials as fulvic-, humic acids and humids,
and of plant residues?

Dr. Torsten Mueller
The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University
Department of Agricultural Sciences
Section of Soil, Water and Plant Nutrition
Thorvaldsensvej 40, DK-1971 Frederiksberg C (Copenhagen), Denmark
Phone: + 45 35283499, Fax: + 45 35283460
e-mail: torsten.muller@agsci.kvl.dk

I have heard from several sources that septic system additives are useless,
that they are a waste of time and money. This if currently official gospel
from the folks at Cornell University, I believe.

I know Peter Harris is on the right track on most "miracle"
additives for soils, plants, septic systems, or other purposes. Often the
users of these products are people that rely on luck and do not have a
a high degree of management. I always compare these products as having
the same results a s buying a lottery ticket. The chances of winning are
just about nil the chances of loosing your money is sure. The improved
results are most likely from the improved management with use of an
additive. Most users of such products start paying attention to their
cattle, crop, soil or septic system when these products are used and
thereby management improves their product.
Klaas Broersma
Kamloops Range Research Station
Kamloops, B.C. Canada
>From wstites@uwspmail.uwsp.edu Thu Jun 30 08:01:01 1920
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Regarding the question about energy efficiency and yield of microbes
digesting various substrates:

Look for articles or perhaps chapters in ASA publications by
Robin F. Harris of the Univ. of Wisconsin. It sounds like his
work would be the exact stuff you are looking for.

Will Stites

I like using microorganizems and feel it doesn't hurt to refresh them
with a new batch . I sometime just fulsh some of the microorganizems I
use on my land just to liven up the septic system. I think it helps . I
think they help the soil also. I remember reading a long time ago that
settlers could not get grapes or some fruit to grow unless
they also brought with them some of the soil and its microorganizems
along with the trees. I know a lot of people don't think its worth it to
add microorganizems because they are found everywhere but there are
different kinds. Some people inoculate beans so they will fix nitrogen even
though the microorganizem is usually in the soil. They seem to make a
compost work faster and worms seem to like being around them. I think
thats what makes a happy septic system. The life thats in it.

On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, Everett Thomas wrote:

> I have heard from several sources that septic system additives are useless,
> that they are a waste of time and money. This if currently official gospel
> from the folks at Cornell University, I believe.
>
>
>

Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org
or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html .

HOwdy,
I have been flipping through this stream and thought that I would
tell of my personal experience with compost additives in the back
yard. I found that the microorganism additives decreased the amount
of time for activity to take place, ( as measured by amount of time
for the compost to heat up) but did not increase the rate of
decomposition ( as measure by heat produced). THis make sence from
the point that you are increasing the initial population of the
organisms which decreases the time maximum decomposition rate
(max temp) occurs.

The chemical additives that I have seen are usually just expensice
fertilizer. (throwing in any inexpensive fertilizer should have the
same effect.

I did find that if I added the yeast sediment of a large batch of
homebrew I substantially increased the rate for activity to take
place as well as the rate of decomposition (12 degrees C higher
with max temperatures reached in less than a day.) Ever thought
of fluching a few beers down the toilet??? It could be worth it
to take up brewing to solve your septic problems. :-)

As far my education can provide for knoledge, the septic guy that
told you to leave some of the sludge in the bottom instead of
removing all of it, and to minimize the amount of bleached and
antibacterial chemicals you throw down the drain was the person
with the best advice. As your kids grow and the amount of washing
grows you are going to find that the bacterial environment is
going to get worse and worse. ( not only are there more chemicals
involved, but the concentration of the nutrients in the sludge
is going to decrease with the additional water usage. Not making
things any happier for the little guys doing all the work down
there.)

Hope this is of some help, or sparks more conversation.
dan

unsubscribe

___________________________________________________
Dr Frank Stagnitti
School of Computing and Mathematics , Deakin University,
P.O. Box 423, Warrnambool, Vic. 3280 AUSTRALIA
( email: frankst@deakin.edu.au ) + (0)55 633 535

Thanks very much to Will Stites, for his Information regarding energy
efficiency and yield of microbes digesting various substrates. I have read
some of Robin F. Harris's publications, dealing with water potential and
microbial growth, but none focussing on energy and substrate use
efficiency of substrates digested by micro organisms. Can anybody tell me
some of these papers?

Dr. Torsten Mueller
The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University
Department of Agricultural Sciences
Section of Soil, Water and Plant Nutrition
Thorvaldsensvej 40, DK-1971 Frederiksberg C (Copenhagen), Denmark
Phone: + 45 35283499, Fax: + 45 35283460
e-mail: torsten.muller@agsci.kvl.dk

On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, Sal Schettino wrote:

> I like using microorganizems and feel it doesn't hurt to refresh them
> with a new batch . I sometime just fulsh some of the microorganizems I
> use on my land just to liven up the septic system. I think it helps . I
> think they help the soil also. I remember reading a long time ago that
> settlers could not get grapes or some fruit to grow unless
> they also brought with them some of the soil and its microorganizems
> along with the trees. I know a lot of people don't think its worth it to
> add microorganizems because they are found everywhere but there are
> different kinds. Some people inoculate beans so they will fix nitrogen even
> though the microorganizem is usually in the soil. They seem to make a
> compost work faster and worms seem to like being around them. I think
> thats what makes a happy septic system. The life thats in it.
>
>
> On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, Everett Thomas wrote:
>
> > I have heard from several sources that septic system additives are useless,
> > that they are a waste of time and money. This if currently official gospel
> > from the folks at Cornell University, I believe.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org
> or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html .
>
>
>

Like most things Sal, there's a bit of truth struggling to get out.
No-one would question the use of microbial inoculation (or introducing a
bit of soil as the old boys did) where the need was for symbiotic
nitrogen fixers or mycorrhizal fungi, there are maybe a few others that
could be useful. The problem is that the "snake oil" merchants
extrapolate from good science to gobbledegook.

> >
>
> Like most things Sal, there's a bit of truth struggling to get out.
> No-one would question the use of microbial inoculation (or introducing a
> bit of soil as the old boys did) where the need was for symbiotic
> nitrogen fixers or mycorrhizal fungi, there are maybe a few others that
> could be useful. The problem is that the "snake oil" merchants
> extrapolate from good science to gobbledegook.

This is probably a good place to talk about soil microbes.I know a lot of
people think they are snake oil.

I tried using microbial inoculation and have been using it for years and
I like it. I base my whole way of raising food on keeping the
microorganizems,worms,etc. alive and kicking. Some years thats most all I
use. It seems that you need humus for them to eat but if you have the
food they will only help the plants grow. Sure if you using chemicals it
will not do any good to add microbes because that may be whats killing
them off. I like learning about them so you all that think its snake oil
fire away. I like hearing both sides. You don't hear that many people
talking about microbes . I'm willing to change my mind . The whole
reason I went organic was to keep these guys alive and working. I hear
they got microbes that will clean up oil spills. They are not snakeoil
they are just natural microbes. My understanding of them and farming is
that people
use to take dirt from their healthest trees and spread the dirt on trees
that were not doing so well. They were in that way taking the good
microbes and other soil life and moving it to a place where the soil was
not as good. There are those that feel a healthy soil makes for a healthy
trees and that you can tell if the soil is healthy by the life thats in it.
Others feel checking the PKN and other salts is the way one measures soil
health. To each his own. Each thinks the other is using snakeoil. Time
will tell.

Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org
or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html .

Hi Sal,

I think the "snake oil" in that last post you answered refered to some
claims made for HIGH priced organic and biologic additives. If the
additive has any effect, one could probably get it also by shoveling
on some rich manure or compost from an appropriate source such as a
healthy field or tree and then managing the field to maximize microbial
diversity.

Paying a high price ($5-$50/lb?) for rich humus to be spread over large
areas as an innoculum would not be a smart move if the stuff could be
picked up from farmers like yourself by the truckload.

Tom
Tom Hodges, Cropping Systems Modeler
USDA-ARS email: thodges@beta.tricity.wsu.edu
Rt. 2, Box 2953-A voice: 509-786-9207
Prosser, WA 99350 USA Fax: 509-786-9370
== ## Rent this space ## ==
If this represents anything, it is only my opinion.

Nicely put!

Torsten,
in regard to your query:

>...focussing on energy and substrate use
>efficiency of substrates digested by micro organisms. Can anybody tell me
>some of these papers?

I am aware of the following paper; I don't know whether it is exactly what
you're looking for.

Swift, R.S., Delisle, G. and Leonard, R.L. 1987. Biodegradation of humic acids
from New Zealand soils. The Science of the Total Environment, 62, 423-430.

It may provide some pointers for your search.

Bye for now,
Andrew Rate

NZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZNZ
Andrew Rate (rate@uniwa.uwa.edu.au) [Kiwi expatriate]
Soil Science and Plant Nutrition Group, University of Western Australia,
WA 6907 AUSTRALIA. Telephone: +61 9 380 2500 Fax: +61 9 380 1050

Test got here.

Hello Nanette. You might want to look into the EPA's Part 503 Regulations for
Sewage Sludge. I believe they include allowable levels for copper in
waste/materials applied to the soil. In California, you might also have to
consider whether the material you are applying is a waste, and if so, whether
it meets the criteria for hazardous waste. (There is a level, pretty high,
for copper.) Wherever you are, I would check with the local public health
department. Someone there can probably best answer your question. Good
luck.

maggie johnson
san francisco, ca

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*******************************************************************
Dr E.Lopez-Baeza email: lopez@vm.ci.uv.es
Dept de Termodinamica tel: +34.(9)6.3864300 ext. 3279
Universitat de Valencia (Spain) fax: 3642345
*******************************************************************

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Dear future ex-members of soils-l, to my knowledge, the correct procedure
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Thanks in advance. Joe.

***********************************************
Jose GENON Assistant

Universite Catholique de Louvain
Faculte des Sciences Agronomiques
Unite des Sciences du Sol

Place Croix-du-Sud 2/10
B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve
Belgium

Tel.: +32 10 47 36 33 Fax.: +32 10 47 45 25

Dear Greg,

Your topic sounds very interesting. I am about to submit my PhD on
on-site wastewater treatment and disposal systems useage in the greater
Sydney area and have looked at the impact of various systems on surface
and ground-water hydrology. I have had some experience with composting
or waterless toilets. I am very keen to hear about how your work is
going and provide and help if possible.

Regards,

Daniel Martens
Department of Geography
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
Ph: (02) 519 5970 Fax: (02) 519 1535

Dear Greg,

Your topic sounds very interesting. I am about to submit my PhD on
on-site wastewater treatment and disposal systems useage in the greater
Sydney area and have looked at the impact of various systems on surface
and ground-water hydrology. I have had some experience with composting
or waterless toilets. I am very keen to hear about how your work is
going and provide and help if possible.

Regards,

Daniel Martens
Department of Geography
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
Ph: (02) 519 5970 Fax: (02) 519 1535
Email: danielm@extro.ucc.su.oz.au

Hello

Does anyone know the address and/or Phone, fax, e-mail no. of the
'International Reference Centre for Waste Disposal' in Dubendorf,
Switzerland. I think it is connected to WHO. I am particularly interested
in contacting Dr Martin Strauss. Thanks
Greg Berry, Centre for Environmental Studies, University of Tasmania, Box
252C, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. 7001.
Phone 002- 202834
002- 202835
Fax 002- 202989

Does anyone know if there are any U.S. soil surveys in a digital format
such as Arc/Info export format or some other graphic or GIS format?
I think I already know the answer to the first question so I'll ask
another. Does anyone know of a database model for U.S. soil surveys
that allows for searching for characteristics of soil types? We are trying
to create GIS coverages for soil surveys that span several states and the
problem we are running into is that not every soil survey has the same attributese
attributes so we are trying to figure out how to combine soil surveys from
many different dates and areas into a single database on which we can query
for such things as Ph level, depth to bedrock, and even some more complex
queries. If anyone can offer any help on the above I would appreciate it
very much.

Peter Krawczak
PIC Technologies, Inc.
Denver CO

--Boundary (ID 3oC5027+OvixlN8j0CfNbg)--

You need to contact your state NRCS office. NRCS has been working on
digitizing soil surveys nationwide and are at various levels of completion
for each state. I don't know what the status of the general soil maps are
(STATSGO), but your state contact should.

gail

On Wed, 2 Aug 1995 PICTECH@delphi.com wrote:

> Does anyone know if there are any U.S. soil surveys in a digital format
> such as Arc/Info export format or some other graphic or GIS format?
> I think I already know the answer to the first question so I'll ask
> another. Does anyone know of a database model for U.S. soil surveys
> that allows for searching for characteristics of soil types? We are trying
> to create GIS coverages for soil surveys that span several states and the
> problem we are running into is that not every soil survey has the same attributese
> attributes so we are trying to figure out how to combine soil surveys from
> many different dates and areas into a single database on which we can query
> for such things as Ph level, depth to bedrock, and even some more complex
> queries. If anyone can offer any help on the above I would appreciate it
> very much.
>
> Peter Krawczak
> PIC Technologies, Inc.
> Denver CO
>
> --Boundary (ID 3oC5027+OvixlN8j0CfNbg)--

>
> Does anyone know if there are any U.S. soil surveys in a digital format
> such as Arc/Info export format or some other graphic or GIS format?
> I think I already know the answer to the first question so I'll ask
> another. Does anyone know of a database model for U.S. soil surveys
> that allows for searching for characteristics of soil types? We are trying
> to create GIS coverages for soil surveys that span several states and the
> problem we are running into is that not every soil survey has the same attributese
> attributes so we are trying to figure out how to combine soil surveys from
> many different dates and areas into a single database on which we can query
> for such things as Ph level, depth to bedrock, and even some more complex
> queries. If anyone can offer any help on the above I would appreciate it
> very much.
>
> Peter Krawczak
> PIC Technologies, Inc.
> Denver CO
>
> --Boundary (ID 3oC5027+OvixlN8j0CfNbg)--
>

Have you all ready tried using STATSGO with National Soil Characterization Data
CDROM?

Heres a list that I have been working on. Below is the summary:

I would be intrested in any information you find.

Tim Miller
<tmiller@bvu-lads.loral.com>
Soil/Geomorphology/GIS Tech.

Orignal Post:

> Hello All,
>
> Sorry for the cross-post on several lists.
>
> I am very intrestested in constructing a list of all digital surface data,
> such as, geomorphology, soils, surfacial geology, other associated
> data sets, and a list of companies/organizations that construct data of
> this type in a digital form.
>
>
> Currently, My list:
>
> Data Set From
> ------------------------------------------ -----------------
> Interim Terrain Data (ITD) DMA
> Tactial Terrain Data (TTD) DMA
> State Soil Geographic Data Base (STATSGO) US DEPT. Ag. NRCS
> Soil Interpretation Record Data Base (SIR) US DEPT. Ag. NRCS
> National Soil Geographic Data Base (NATSGO) US DEPT. Ag. NRCS
> National Soil Characterization Data US DEPT. Ag. NRCS
> Map Unit Interpretattion Record DataBase (MUIR) US DEPT. Ag. NRCS
> Soil Survey Geographic Data Base (SSURGO) US DEPT. Ag. NRCS
>
>
> If any one has any further information if you send it to me
> (tmiller@bvu-lads.loral.com).
>
> I'll post a summary of all my findings, and try to give a
> short descriptions of all the data sets.
>
>
> Thanks
>

I would like to thank all the people who replied to my
question. I'll keep an on going list if you want any
info in the feature please let me know and if you have
any info you would like to add please send it to me.

General Overview and Summary of all replies
-------------------------------------------

From: Paul Loechl, loechl@diego.cecer.army.mil

o Manual of Federal Geographic Data Products
o National Geophysical
o Data Center, and state soil agenices

>From Michael Ballard, ballard@igs.net

Pole Star Geomatics is supposed to be a well rounded GIS consulting
and service firm, but it seems most of my work lately has been on
surficial materials data sets. I see your list so far is primarily
U.S. gov't data. I can add a few pointers to Canadian gov't data
authors. You should check out:

The Canadian Soil Information System ( CanSIS )
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.
http://res.agr.ca/home.html

From: Chris Duncan, duncan@GEOLOGY.GEO.CORNELL.EDU Chris Duncan

o Digital Chart of the World (DCW)

From: Gail Taylor, taylor@vinny.cecer.army.mil

Many of the state agencies in the United States also
produce digital data layers for those mentioned. They
are too numerous to mention but you might want to make
note of this in your list.

From: Carrie J. Patterson, patte018@maroon.tc.umn.edu

The Minnesota Geological Survey produces digital versions of our
maps. We have just started doing this but some of our older map
products have been digitized by the users. The state office called
Land Management Information Center (LMIC) is a clearing house for
all digital data for the state of Minnesota.

From: Greg Tucker, tucker@farallon.geosc.psu.edu

Digital Chart of the World (DCW)
Eros Data Center: http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/eros-home.html
USGS: http://www.usgs.gov/

From: Dr. John Fels, fels@unity.ncsu.edu

The Design Research Laboratory at the School of Design, North Carolina
State University, produces a variety of digital terrain layers from
digital elevation models. These are topographic (geomorphometric)
characterizations intended for environmental and ecological modeling
applications.

Data layers potentially include:

Elevation, meters
Elevation, feet
Slope, percent
Slope, degrees
MaxSlope, percent
MaxSlope, degrees
Aspect, degrees
Aspect, Beers transformation (several versions)
Terrain Shape Index (TSI, after McNab)
Slope Profile Curvature
Slope Section Curvature
Net Slope Curvature
Landscape Position (several versions)
Landform Index (LFI, after McNab)
Aspect-weighted Landform Index

These include basic elevation data, first-order derivatives, second-order
derivatives, mesoscale characterizations, and fractal-scale
characterizations. All of these are produced using custom algorithms
written here at the Design Research Laboratory. Many of these are either
not availble in commercial GIS applications or are superior to the
versions provided by those applications (e.g. slope). New terrain
variables are being developed on an ongoing basis, and more will be added in
the future.

>From James P. McCalpin, mccalpin@geohaz.com

USGS has digital geologic maps of several states (AZ,AR,CO,KY,OR,UT,WY) in
ARC/INFO export format, available for ftp at greenwood.cr.usgs.gov

From: Owen K. Davis, palynolo@geo.arizona.edu, amd
From: JONATHAN D. PHILLIPS, GEPHILLI@ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU

NGDC is offering a CD-ROM "Global Ecosystems Database"
with ... topography, soils...
They're at info@ngdc.noaa.gov

From: Nancy Voorhis, nancy@aspiring.unh.edu

...there is a new system on line here in New Hampshire that I have been
working on, which makes the GRANIT database available on the Web. The
GRANIT database is the statewide repository for GIS data for the state
of new hampshire and includes a variety of data layers which you can
browse at the Web Site.

The URL is:
http://nhresnet.sr.unh.edu

From: Sue Tewalt, stewalt@ncrds.er.usgs.gov

I'd list the USGS products anyway:
digital elevantion model, 7.5' 15' 1-degree units
digital line graph 7.5' 15' 30' (transportation, hydrography)
land use land cover 30' 1-degree units (sometimes "dated" info)
digital orthophoto quadrangles
US Forest Service cartographic feature files
various forms of satellite imagery available from EROS data center

Thanks for the help, I've just started to look for potential sources and
hit a wall real quick. Peter Krawczak

I'm looking into 40 acres at 5000', steep California coast range, as
a camping and hang gliding spot, and want to start with increasing the
native grasses (later, forbs and trees). We've gotten good advice on
identification, seed collection, and what to weed out to begin revegetation
... but what about soils?

Eyeballing lichen lines on rocks, one of our advisors said there'd been
about a foot of soil on this land a century ago, and now there's half an inch
of A horizon -- anything from gravel pavement to patches of remaining woodland,
all still going downhill except where the plants have held a soil patch together.

What can I learn about soils that are there - and that would've been there
a century ago, pre-logging and -fire and -sheep-grazing impacts?

I've got a MA in rat psychology and the time to do my reading on this so
am looking for what I can do on my own, or hire a pro to teach me to do,
but I know we have to do this right. Maybe three thousand dollars ...

Pardon the reallly naive broad question to the list. I do have the names
of a Professional Soil Scientists Ass'n of Northern California to call up too.

Hello, if anyone has experimental data on unfrozen water contnet in frozen soils please contact myself : Jonathan Webber RES2005@husky1.stmarys.caCkjrd}A2G

Gentlemen,

We are Synergy Superconductive Technologies Ltd. and are growers of and
finishers of ultrapure Magnesium Oxide substrates in sizes ranging from 1 cm.
X 1 cm. to 2" diameter X 10 (and 20) mils thickness. Our MgO substrates are
the wafers of preference for HTSC applications upon which you can deposit
YBCO. Our company is also capable of supplying you our MgO coated with YBCO
with or without lithography as per your needs.
We can be reached at Synergy@netvision.net.il
Regards,
Jeff Gabbay
President

Hello,
sorry to send this non subject related message to the list, however I feel it
is important enough and might be of interest for you. You might have heard of
an e-mail chain letter against nuclear tests which was circulating around.
Now, the originator decided it was a better idea to make up a http page
so that people could sign up there directly, without having thousends of
copys of the letter to be circulated. Below I include the letter from
the originator and the WWW-address of the http page.
Thanks for interest and sorry for cross-posting
Best regards
Joerg Kaduk *
***
MPI for Meteorology kaduk@dkrz.d400.de *****
Bundesstr. 55 Phone + 40 41173 282 ***
D-20146 Hamburg Fax + 40 41173 298 #
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###

Subject: The list is terminated

First of all, I have to deeply apologize everyone for my having started a
chain letter. Thank you very much for those of you who have pointed out the
troublesomeness about the chain letter. I have decided to stop collecting
signatures by using chain letter, (ofcourse I will collect the names already
signed on it) but then, I have to use the same method to stop it. So, please
forgive me of my asking you to send this letter to everyone who you have sent
the "Stop Nuclear Tests!" chain letter. I am sending this letter to everyone
who have sent me a letter concering this matter, so some of you might receive
more than one copies of this letter, but again, forgive me of this happening.

> > Now, this is what I would like you to do.

If you have sent a copy of the "Stop Nuclear Tests!" chain letter
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
to your friends, please send a copy of this letter to each of those
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
friends as soon as possible.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you haven't sent a copy of it to anyone and still have the
copy in your hand, please send the list back to me. My e-mail address is
keshi@uticeaix1.icepp.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp

Don't forget to add your name on the list if you do think
the French government, or any other group should not execute
nuclear tests.

Right now, Shimizu Seishi and I are constructing a WWW Homepage
to continue this activity. From now on, We will gather signatures
via WWW, or simply accept signatures sent to us. We would also like to
show the list on WWW, but if you don't want your name to be
open to the public, please tell me so. We will keep your name
on the list that will be sent to Mr. Chirac, the president of
France, anyway.

The WWW homepage will have the follwing contents:
* The objective of this activity
* The list of signatures
* A page to introduce opinions about the Nuclear Tests
* A page to ask for technical advices to make this activity a better one
* Links to related pages
> > The adress is:

> > http://www.icepp.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~keshi/
> >
> > - --
> > Yuichi Nishihara
> > Physics Department, School of Science, University of Tokyo
> > keshi@uticeaix1.icepp.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp
> > http://www.icepp.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~keshi/

I hope I do not offend anyone with this post!

For those of you with access to the World Wide Web, I have just finished my
first attempt at a home page about sites on the Internet for different kinds
of maps. I think that this info may be interesting and informative to some of
you out there.

Let me know what you think!

It is located at: http://194.66.93.40/jim

Jim Snyder
Soil Conservation Technician
USDA
Natural Resources Conservation Service
------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------